Christmas: celebrating the birth of a person who most likely never even existed

[deejne]

Interesting article... if you can find time to read, can read at all (learn to read), or have ADD like me... just read it.


The proposition that "Jesus Christ" never existed relies on much more than simply stating that we don't have evidence for his existence or that the Gospels are unbelievable. Showing that the story of Jesus Christ is not based on a person in any meaningful way requires showing that the story of Jesus Christ is better explained as having developed through non-historical methods than it is through historical methods. We can identify literary sources and traditions that are not only capable of providing all of the material for the Jesus story, but indeed it is clear that the Jesus story is developed from these source materials, and this fact undermines the possibility that the stories are based on observed historical events. If the crucifixion of Jesus were based on an observed historical event, then we should not expect that virtually every line of the crucifixion narrative comes from existing Hebrew scriptures (including themes that were mistranslated in the Greek sources that were used). Not only does the scriptural basis of the Jesus stories undermine their historical credibility, but we also have historical facts, or lack thereof, which corroborate Jesus' absence of existence.

http://rationalrevolution.net/articles/jesus_myth_history.htm#2

[KOiN]

rofl

[Foq]

historical fact: jesus did exist

he is the most quoted prophet in the quaran

he has a whole half of the bible based on him

keep it moving ya groupie

[Lil Miss Carob Snuggles]

historical fact: jesus did exist

he is the most quoted prophet in the quaran

he has a whole half of the bible based on him

keep it moving ya groupie

[deejne]

historical fact: jesus did exist

he is the most quoted prophet in the quaran

he has a whole half of the bible based on him

keep it moving ya groupie

Yeah this article details and cases that out.

[Lil Miss Carob Snuggles]

Yeah this article details and cases that out.

"cases that out"

LOL!!!

[pad]

i don't know whether or not he as a person actually existed

i'm sure it's not a stretch for him to have

the magic tricks though, yeah, didn't happen

[Foq]

Yeah this article details and cases that out.
i dont read such blasphemy

its written by an anti religion cocktarde so it is void

it has a strong bias

[KOiN]

i believe he existed

i do not believe he came back to life after he died tho

[Foq]

i believe he existed

i do not believe he came back to life after he died tho
fair enough

any logical person cant deny the existant of jesus

[deejne]

It's written by a person who is rational and doesn't believe in religious blasphemy...

Religion as a survival mechanism... it's how human brains operate, to try and make sense of things. It's why people see "faces" in all sorts of objects, etc

Why do we exist? Oh some entity created us. Yeah.

Read here as well: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/15/weekinreview/12wade.html?_r=3&ref=weekinreview


i dont read such blasphemy

its written by an anti religion cocktarde so it is void

it has a strong bias

[KOiN]

It's written by a person who is rational and doesn't believe in religious blasphemy...

Religion as a survival mechanism... it's how human brains operate, to try and make sense of things. It's why people see "faces" in all sorts of objects, etc

Why do we exist? Oh some entity created us. Yeah.

Read here as well: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/15/weekinreview/12wade.html?_r=3&ref=weekinreview

im not even reading ur rants i'm just like whoa

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fC8EAQ8xhM

5fC8EAQ8xhM

[Foq]

keep linking articles that i wont click on

but the fact is nicholas wade writes mainly science/evolution articles in the new york times i know this because i read the fucking paper every day

people like him choose science over god any day and bash the latter

[deejne]

Rant ha. Well, whatever you want to call it. It's more rational than anything you'll here come out of some televangelists mouth.

yeah obviously we have basic human laws, etc (Don't murder people, don't steal, etc) Don't need a religion to tell you that.

[Treal P]

sall jeezus bro

the thing i feel bad about is that if jesus ever came back, no one would ever know because they are so caught up with idolizing one life/person (Jesus) from the past time

i'm still waiting for jesus to come back he is probably here atm but no one knows it.

people most in touch with reality are usually stressed the heck out

i don't like the way he died for our sins, why would he have to die for our sins when we all will die in the end while basically being judged based upon the karma of our own life

i'm not christain/catholic and never have been to sunday church

we are all God's children so I don't believe Jesus would be any different from me or you deep down in our hearts

[KOiN]

i want some fuckin corn chips and spicey dip right now

[Lil Miss Carob Snuggles]

i want some fuckin corn chips and spicey dip right now

if u make it to spicey it get's nastey :D

[Foq]

but where does that morality come from?

ok idiot u want me to school you hardcore bring it nigga

before religion there was "magic" we had a survivalist train of thought that involved killing if needed but now we have religion as a backbone for both morality and life.

after religion we had set moral standards

[deejne]

I wouldn't consider it "Bashing," but that's how most religious zealots look at it anyway.

It is a case to free people from their religious prison they've become entwined. Give more money to the church.

It's their way or the highway, instead of thinking rationally.


keep linking articles that i wont click on

but the fact is nicholas wade writes mainly science/evolution articles in the new york times i know this because i read the fucking paper every day

people like him choose science over god any day and bash the latter

[craig]

i believe in santa clause also

[dynastoned]

rofl jesus was a real person you faggot. now about his mythical journey some asshole made up on shrooms that is up for debate.

[deejne]

rofl jesus was a real person you faggot. now about his mythical journey some asshole made up on shrooms that is up for debate.

Prove it.

[KOiN]

ooOOO baby, i be stuck to you like glue, baby
WANNA SPEND IT ALL ON YOU, BABY
MY ROOM IS THE G SPOT
CALL ME MR FLINTSTONE, I CAN MAKE UR BED ROCK

[Foq]

I wouldn't consider it "Bashing," but that's how most religious zealots look at it anyway.

It is a case to free people from their religious prison they've become entwined. Give more money to the church.

It's their way or the highway, instead of thinking rationally.
the only reason people give to the church is to keep the actual building running

we dont believe in buying your way into religion that was done due to corruption

[deejne]

the only reason people give to the church is to keep the actual building running

we dont believe in buying your way into religion that was done due to corruption

Ok, I agree with you on that point.

[deejne]

rofl jesus was a real person you faggot. now about his mythical journey some asshole made up on shrooms that is up for debate.


The majority of people in the world today assume or believe that Jesus Christ was at the very least a real person. Perhaps he wasn't really "the Messiah", perhaps he was not "The Son of God", and perhaps he didn't actually perform miracles and rise from the dead, but he really was a great moral teacher who traveled around Galilee with followers and got arrested by the Jews and crucified by the Romans right?


Not likely. In fact, a close examination of the evidence shows that the best explanation for the story of "Jesus Christ" is what we call "mythology". The case that I will be outlining here is that there never was any "Jesus Christ" nor any meaningful real life basis for the story of "Jesus Christ". Like many other religious figures, "Jesus Christ" began as a theological concept, was later used as a character in allegorical stories, and was then historicized as someone whom people believed really existed. The belief in a literal "human" Jesus most likely emerged as eucharist rituals and theology developed around the concept of the "flesh" and "blood" of Christ and these concepts merged with allegorical narratives about the figure.

[Treal P]

no one can ever prove that jesus actually existed in real life or our time (yes this is the biggest argument and when christains are arguing they always say "Jesus actually existed, so my religion is better and you're going to hell") lol

the character "Jesus" exists, and is the most noticeable figure in the world while pumping in money and controlling mass amounts of people. (Jesus the character doesn't do this, the writers of the character do)

[deejne]

I am all for a mythological character who does good things and helps people, and the stories are great. I just think the problem is people take most of this stuff literally.

And the church needs recognize that. There is no magic healing or turning water into wine, it's impossible and physics proves it.


no one can ever prove that jesus actually existed in real life or our time (yes this is the biggest argument and when christains are arguing they always say "Jesus actually existed, so my religion is better and you're going to hell") lol

the character "Jesus" exists, and is the most noticeable figure in the world while pumping in money and controlling mass amounts of people. (Jesus the character doesn't do this, the writers of the character do)

[deejne]

Typical "religious person" response ITT would be to come in, NOT READ anything. And post "Fuck you, Jesus was a real person."

Now what can we gather from that.

[deejne]

Now here's something for the people who can't read or have severe ADD...

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa74/harrowlawl/sciencevsreligion.jpg

[Treal P]

deejne are you agnostic?

[sub]

this thread is now about pterodactyl porn and the firm

http://fantasti.cc/blog/golgothaeternal/files/2009/06/20090603_pterodactyl_rape.jpg

KcyIT6QijAA

[Treal P]

Hail Mary Nigga

[craig]

rofl jesus was a real person you faggot. now about his mythical journey some asshole made up on shrooms that is up for debate.
uh not trying to get involved in a religious cockfest here but that is a crazy statement

[sub]

HM9zpTTZirk

http://blog.gamelink.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/pterodactylporn.jpg

[deejne]

deejne are you agnostic?

Yes, the question of whether god exists or not is irrelevant to human existence.

[craig]

z63wUard9lE

[Treal P]

Hinduism was the world's first documented religion

and I still understand it today (actually I don't understand it, it just comes to me and makes sense)

Me personally I'd rather worship a feminine energy

and that feminine energy of worship to me is the Cannabis Sativa/Indica plant, designed for planet earth and us humans living here

[musicnerdanimals]

Hinduism was the world's first documented religion

and I still understand it today (actually I don't understand it, it just comes to me and makes sense)

Me personally I'd rather worship a feminine energy

and that feminine energy of worship to me is the Cannabis Sativa/Indica plant, designed for planet earth and us humans living here
fag

[deejne]

fag

Actually early humans worshiped the female... until the church demonized them.

They even went as far as claiming "Mary" gave birth to a son and she was still a virgin.

That's not possible, obviously anyone with half a brain would realize that.

[musicnerdanimals]

Actually early humans worshiped the female... until the church demonized them.

They even went as far as claiming "Mary" gave birth to a son and she was still a virgin.

That's not possible, obviously anyone with half a brain would realize that.
bunch of fags

[Treal P]

Do you think God would worship God?

come on now

God worships his creations i.e Mother Nature and everything manifested there. The whole feminine aspect that gives us life and energy. Look at the physical world around you, it's so beautiful.

Jai Ma

[deejne]

bunch of fags

ROFL

[Dr Seduce]

there was no jesus, there is probably no god who cares about you, get over your egos, youre just a grain of sand on some shitty planet full of idiots

[Audio]

I love principals posts

[Jrdn]

Jesus Christ, the worlds greatest comedian.

Thanks bro.

[deejne]

Jesus Christ, the worlds greatest comedian.

Thanks bro.

hahhah

[Treal P]

Do you think God would worship God?

come on now

God worships his creations i.e Mother Nature and everything manifested there. The whole feminine aspect that gives us life and energy. Look at the physical world around you, it's so beautiful.

Jai Ma

One can't exist without the other

[ryph]

http://www.phuckpolitics.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/jesus_fucking_christ.jpg

[Morboo]

I happen to have ADD and this shit IS tl;dr..
Maybe read later

[ChewY]

I wish i could believe in god i think id be a lot happier if i could. Kinda like kids are like omg santa is coming santa is coming w/ raindeer and toys!

[deejne]

I wish i could believe in god i think id be a lot happier if i could. Kinda like kids are like omg santa is coming santa is coming w/ raindeer and toys!

bahahaha

[Xyrix]

i believe he existed

i do not believe he came back to life after he died tho


He got a Jewid to battle rez him.

[KOiN]

if I was about to be fucking crucified I'd bubble hearth lickity split

[dna]

rofl jesus was a real person you faggot. now about his mythical journey some asshole made up on shrooms that is up for debate.

he's right

Josephus, a roman/jewish historian who was born in 37 a.d. talks about a jesus of nazareth in many of his works.


about this time there lived jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. for he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. he won over many jews and many of the greeks.

also, professor m. wilcox talks about strictly jewish proof of jesus of nazareth, read of on that.

also, read the book a case for christ by ian strobel if you don't think he existed historically at one point

[mj]

Zombie Jesus.

[lussuria]

he's right

Josephus, a roman/jewish historian who was born in 37 a.d. talks about a jesus of nazareth in many of his works.



also, professor m. wilcox talks about strictly jewish proof of jesus of nazareth, read of on that.

also, read the book a case for christ by Lee strobel if you don't think he existed historically at one point

fix'd.

Also, Josephus wrote some pretty cool stuff. My former pastor used to talk about him a lot, so I read a bunch of his stuff.

[deejne]

he's right

Josephus, a roman/jewish historian who was born in 37 a.d. talks about a jesus of nazareth in many of his works.


about this time there lived jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. for he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. he won over many jews and many of the greeks.also, professor m. wilcox talks about strictly jewish proof of jesus of nazareth, read of on that.

also, read the book a case for christ by ian strobel if you don't think he existed historically at one point

Right there we can see how this whole passage could have easily been taken out of context throughout hundreds of years and/or easily manipulated.

Here is the same passage from William Whiston on Wikipedia (which is still considered disputable):


The following passage appears in the Greek version of Antiquities of the Jews 18.63-64, in the translation of William Whiston (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Whiston):
Γίνεται δὲ κατὰ τοῦτον τὸν χρόνον Ἰησοῦς σοφὸς ἀνήρ, εἴγε ἄνδρα αὐτὸν λέγειν χρή: ἦν γὰρ παραδόξων ἔργων ποιητής, διδάσκαλος ἀνθρώπων τῶν ἡδονῇ τἀληθῆ δεχομένων, καὶ πολλοὺς μὲν Ἰουδαίους, πολλοὺς δὲ καὶ τοῦ Ἑλληνικοῦ ἐπηγάγετο: ὁ χριστὸς οὗτος ἦν. καὶ αὐτὸν ἐνδείξει τῶν πρώτων ἀνδρῶν παρ᾽ ἡμῖν σταυρῷ ἐπιτετιμηκότος Πιλάτου οὐκ ἐπαύσαντο οἱ τὸ πρῶτον ἀγαπήσαντες: ἐφάνη γὰρ αὐτοῖς τρίτην ἔχων ἡμέραν πάλιν ζῶν τῶν θείων προφητῶν ταῦτά τε καὶ ἄλλα μυρία περὶ αὐτοῦ θαυμάσια εἰρηκότων. εἰς ἔτι τε νῦν τῶν Χριστιανῶν ἀπὸ τοῦδε ὠνομασμένον οὐκ ἐπέλιπε τὸ φῦλον.

3.3 Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ). And when Pilate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate), at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion), those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus#Testimonium_Flavianum


Also the guy who translated that (Whiston) was..


considered heretical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy) on many points, he was a firm believer in supernatural Christianity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity), and frequently took the field in defense of prophecy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy) and miracle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle), including anointing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anoint) the sick and touching for the king's evil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King%27s_evil). His dislike of rationalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalism) in religion also made him one of the numerous opponents of Benjamin Hoadly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Hoadly)'s Plain Account of the Nature and End of the Sacrament.

Could be a biased translation easily...

[deejne]

fix'd.

Also, Josephus wrote some pretty cool stuff. My former pastor used to talk about him a lot, so I read a bunch of his stuff.

Also...


All of the non-Christian references to Jesus can be shown to have either been introduced later by Christian scribes or were originally based on Christian claims

There are four primary non-Christian potential references to Jesus Christ in the existing literature. All of these references are in works that were written after the Gospels had been written and, as with all ancient works, they come down to us through a long line of translations and hand copying.
In the later part of the 2nd century and afterwards "Jesus Christ" was written about by increasing numbers of people, however these later references are acknowledged by scholars today to have been based on the regularly circulating stories about Jesus from the Gospels, not on independent accounts of Jesus. The four main potential sources for independent accounts of Jesus are as follows:


Antiquity of the Jews by Josephus, written in 94 CE (two separate references)
The Annals by Tacitus, written in 109 CE
Letter to Trajan by Pliny the Younger, written in 112 CE
The Lives of the Caesars by Suetonius, written in 120 CE

The four sources listed above have long been recognized as the primary documents that potentially attest to the historical existence of Jesus. These are the same four sources listed in the 1910 copy of the Catholic Encyclopedia...

http://rationalrevolution.net/articles/jesus_myth_history.htm#2

[dna]

your entire argument is based off of speculation and the possibility of mis-interpretation.

there are documented texts that prove that a "jesus of nazareth" existed. he didn't preform any miracles or anything like that, but he was alive at one point. i don't know why that's so hard to understand.

[lussuria]

What I don't understand is why you have a problem with the idea of Jesus existing. I can see people not wanting to believe that he did miracles, but there's no reason he shouldn't exist. Mohammed existed, but an angel never talked to him... Joseph Smith probably existed too, but he didn't find any weird tablets with writing on them. Buddha existed, but he most likely didn't achieve Nirvana.

Even most atheist scholars will acknowledge that Jesus existed. It doesn't challenge anything to admit that he exsisted.

[1337ninjer]

Proselytizing is so obnoxious.

[ieyeasu]

The documents don't prove that he existed. They support that claim, to one degree or another, depending on how you view their authenticity.

That said, the way we think about history is generally fucked. The human mind can't really can't comprehend "the way things were" as recently as the last decade. We have incomplete information and we fill a lot of holes with bullshit. Forget trying to understand antiquity. For a moment, consider that no living human being knows what a Napoleonic battle looked like.

[ieyeasu]

What I don't understand is why you have a problem with the idea of Jesus existing. I can see people not wanting to believe that he did miracles, but there's no reason he shouldn't exist. Mohammed existed, but an angel never talked to him... Joseph Smith probably existed too, but he didn't find any weird tablets with writing on them. Buddha existed, but he most likely didn't achieve Nirvana.

Even most atheist scholars will acknowledge that Jesus existed. It doesn't challenge anything to admit that he exsisted.


Hm?

I'm not sure that Muhammed or Buddha existed either. I'm not sure that Julius Ceaser was a real guy.

[capone]

Yeah, I don't believe there ever was a Jesus and the only thing I've ever come close to explaining it that's even rational is the zeitgiest. It's the sun/constellations personified into real people. I don't believe in some intergalactic zombie. Just my opinion.

BNf-P_5u_Hw

[deejne]

your entire argument is based off of speculation and the possibility of mis-interpretation.

there are documented texts that prove that a "jesus of nazareth" existed. he didn't preform any miracles or anything like that, but he was alive at one point. i don't know why that's so hard to understand.

No that is only part of the argument... Read this part debunking the "Josephus Account" or Testimonium Flavianum read it if you got the time, or bookmark and comeback later.

Once you load the page do a search for "Josephus - Antiquity of the Jews" and start from there.

http://rationalrevolution.net/articles/jesus_myth_history.htm#10

Since Testimonium Flavianum is the closest possible account of Jesus any real historian will honor.

No one will argue that Jesus is the most popular "person" to date. He is indeed. If so, then why is there not more clear, concise, and hard evidence of his flesh existence, and proof that he was more than a mythological character. There's nothing wrong with mythology, it's an important part of Greek history too, and they also believed in those gods. It's just time to move on and for people to realize it. At what point did people realize that the mythological Greek gods not exist? And at what point will people realize the same about their very own modern religions?

[capone]

Btw, if we are talking about a person named Jesus, I know like 15 of them that cut grass around here. Js.

[ieyeasu]

Yeah, I don't believe there ever was a Jesus and the only thing I've ever come close to explaining it that's even rational is the zeitgiest. It's the sun/constellations personified into real people. I don't believe in some intergalactic zombie. Just my opinion.

BNf-P_5u_Hw

God I fucking hate zeitgeist.

[capone]

God I fucking hate zeitgeist.

LOL, logical enough for me. Sure beats the fuck out of some magical guy that heals sick people, walks on water, changes weather and comes back to life after dying. Sorry I might as well believe in the Tooth Fairy.

Edit: Hard for me to believe if there was a Jesus or Lord he would let scams known as churches be around to basically run mind control and steal your money.. LOL.

[ieyeasu]

LOL, logical enough for me. Sure beats the fuck out of some magical guy that heals sick people, walks on water, changes weather and comes back to life after dying. Sorry I might as well believe in the Tooth Fairy.

Edit: Hard for me to believe if there was a Jesus or Lord he would let scams known as churches be around to basically run mind control and steal your money.. LOL.

I believe that religions are false. I do not believe that they are kleptocracies. And I don't believe that there are lizard-men.

The climate of disrespect that permeates Zeitgeist, followed by the paranoia...it's fucking ridiculous.

[capone]

I believe that religions are false. I do not believe that they are kleptocracies. And I don't believe that there are lizard-men.

The climate of disrespect that permeates Zeitgeist, followed by the paranoia...it's fucking ridiculous.

I watched the first movie, that I listed above.. The paranoid conspiracy monetary shit is false.

Zeitgeist didn't implant in my head that churches are scams. The fact that they take money from hard working people, build multimillion dollar churches and the Reverend drives brand new Cadillacs, BMW's, Benz's, and live in some of the most expensive houses as doctors... did.

[deejne]

Although there are some good valid points made, I am also not a huge fan of Zeitgeist.

[deejne]

Btw, if we are talking about a person named Jesus, I know like 15 of them that cut grass around here. Js.

Good point Cxpone :)

Read this:


...what is important is the fact that both "Jesus" and "James" (in their Greek and Hebrew forms) were extremely common names at the time. Indeed there are at least 19 or so "Jesuses" listed between the Bible and the works of Josephus. Josephus himself lists about 14. 1. Jesus son of Naue (Joshua of Nun)
2. Jesus son of Saul
3. Jesus, high priest, son of Phineas
4. Jesus son of the high priest Jozadak
5. Jesus son of Joiada
6. Jesus, high priest, son of Simon
7. Jesus, high priest, son of Phabes
8. Jesus, high priest, son of See
9. Jesus, high priest, son of Sirach (writer of Wisdom of Jesus son of Sirach)
10. Jesus Christ
11. Jesus son of Damnaeus, became high priest
12. Jesus son of Gamaliel, became high priest
13. Jesus son of high priest Sapphas and military general
14. Jesus, chief priest, probably to be identified with 10 or 11
15. Jesus son of Gamalas, high priest
16. Jesus, brigand chief on borderland of Ptolemais
17. Jesus son of Sapphias
18. Jesus brother of Chares
19. Jesus a Galilean, perhaps to be identified with 15
20. Jesus in ambuscade, perhaps to be identified with 16
21. Jesus, priest, son of Thebuthi
22. Jesus, son of Ananias, rude peasant, prophesies the fall of Jerusalem.
Of the 28 high priests between the reign of King Herod the Great and the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE, four of them were named Jesus.
So, it's important here to understand that both Jesus and James were very popular names, and that the mere coupling of these names by themselves would not in any way identify a Jesus as the same Jesus who is the subject of the Gospels; one has to consider the passage and the subject of the writing.

[capone]

Good point Cxpone :)
Read this:

JS if I really liked YTCracker for instance, and decided to teach my kids about him and things he did, and their kids about him, and their friends and so on... in 1000 years he too would walk on water, be the first man to jump into space and float around watching everyone and turn water into Hennessy. JS.

[ieyeasu]

I watched the first movie, that I listed above.. The paranoid conspiracy monetary shit is false.

Zeitgeist didn't implant in my head that churches are scams. The fact that they take money from hard working people, build multimillion dollar churches and the Reverend drives brand new Cadillacs, BMW's, Benz's, and live in some of the most expensive houses as doctors... did.

People choose to support churches. I won't say that some churches aren't scams. I will say that most aren't.

Zeitgeist also gets a lot of its research wrong. The story of Horus didn't so closely resemble Jesus's story until much later. Originally, it was a lot different--Isis wasn't a virgin, Osiris went to the underworld and was risen, etc. The December 25th/dead for three days/miracle worker thing was sort of a Mediterranean religious fervor of the first century. Lots of gods that used to have unique features starting to look a lot like objects of sun cults.

[deejne]

People choose to support churches. I won't say that some churches aren't scams. I will say that most aren't.

Zeitgeist also gets a lot of its research wrong. The story of Horus didn't so closely resemble Jesus's story until much later. Originally, it was a lot different--Isis wasn't a virgin, Osiris went to the underworld and was risen, etc. The December 25th/dead for three days/miracle worker thing was sort of a Mediterranean religious fervor of the first century. Lots of gods that used to have unique features starting to look a lot like objects of sun cults.

There is well documented evidence of the Catholic church basically stealing money as they were the only ones that could read the Latin the bible was written in, they told people they had to give money to the church. Then Martin Luther translated it to German, and he was excommunicated.


Luther strongly disputed their claim that freedom from God's punishment of sin could be purchased with money. His refusal to retract all of his writings at the demand of Pope Leo X (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Leo_X) in 1520 and the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_V,_Holy_Roman_Emperor) at the Edict of Worms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Worms) meeting in 1521 resulted in his excommunication (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excommunication) by the pope and condemnation as an outlaw (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlaw) by the emperor. Martin Luther taught that salvation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvation) is not from good works, but a free gift of God, received only by grace through faith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_in_Christianity#Lutheranism) in Jesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheranism#Christ) as redeemer from sin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin).

His translation of the Bible (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther_Bible) into the language of the people (instead of Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin)) made it more accessible, causing a tremendous impact on the church and on German culture.

I do not agree with some of the other things Luther believed.

[ieyeasu]

There is well documented evidence of the Catholic church basically stealing money as they were the only ones that could read the Latin the bible was written in, they told people they had to give money to the church. Then Martin Luther translated it to German, and he was excommunicated.



I do not agree with some of the other things Luther believed.

I'm pretty well schooled with how that went down. Luther's followers started a church too, btw. Did they, do they steal?

Asking for money and receiving it is stealing?

[ieyeasu]

Really, I'm shocked that people at DG would call the sale of indulgences stealing.

Fuckers were selling peace of minnnnnnnnnnnnnnd.

[craig]

for you guys to be boldly claiming that it's "obvious" or unquestionable that this dude Jesus ever existed is just insane to me, to think that you really put 100% trust and faith in things that were supposedly documented from thousands of years ago, i had enough trouble believing in global warming, did we even land on the moon? WHAT IS HAPPENING AHHHHHHHHHHHH

but for anyone to say that they are 100% sure he did/did not exist is just weird

[dna]

so with your logic, since there is no evidence either way in your mind, the chances are 50/50 that he existed or not. since you see no evidence either way it's completely up in the air.

so you saying that he couldn't exist is basically the same as christians saying god exist 0.o

[ieyeasu]

so with your logic, since there is no evidence either way in your mind, the chances are 50/50 that he existed or not. since you see no evidence either way it's completely up in the air.

so you saying that he couldn't exist is basically the same as christians saying god exist 0.o

no one has said anything like that

mannnnnnnnnnnnn

[capone]

Asking for money and receiving it is stealing?

Asking for money while using a falsehood and unjust cause is definitely a scam. Maybe I'll pass around a Santa's collection plate, and keep all the money. Hm?


People choose to support churches. I won't say that some churches aren't scams. I will say that most aren't.
People don't choose to support churches, they're raised to support them. It's a cult in every sense of the word. You're led to believe if you don't support your church you must ask for forgiveness, or be sentenced to hell? LOL.

By the way, if Priests, the people that are supposedly closest to God, are molesting little boys.. shows how much they believe in the bullshit that they "preach"

[capone]

All in all, those who chose to stick to religion for explaining things that happen in the world are slowly but surely becoming a minority.

Seventy-five percent of Americans call themselves Christian, according to the American Religious Identification Survey from Trinity College in Hartford, Connecticut. In 1990, the figure was 86 percent.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/wayoflife/03/09/us.religion.less.christian/

[craig]

so with your logic, since there is no evidence either way in your mind, the chances are 50/50 that he existed or not. since you see no evidence either way it's completely up in the air.

so you saying that he couldn't exist is basically the same as christians saying god exist 0.o
my logic is that humans should be smarter than to just dream up these images with the intent of saying "hah! since you can't prove it DOESN'T exist, it does!" - you realize that is entirely backwards as far as sensibility goes? maybe it isn't right to define sensibility in this way, maybe that's just my opinion

it's not "completely up in the air" at all to me, if someone calls me up right now exclaiming that they just saw two unicorns fucking in their front yard and they don't have some sort of convincing evidence then i am going to hang up the phone and disregard that shit as if it never even happened

[craig]

and by convincing evidence, i don't mean a fictional book
it takes a little more for me - i don't give a shit about religion at all really and haven't studied the bible or anything so i'm actually speaking in general, not about Jesus alone

[Allyanna]

I can't believe you guys are arguing about this shit. rofl

[spire]

I believe Jesus existed. Does that make me an idiot? Hardly.

The way I see it, religion is the ying to science's yang. Whether or not Jesus and his biblical tale, were actually real/true, is entirely besides the point. As someone else stated, religion simply laid the foundation for society's moral standards.

I think that some people feel cheated in life, by God himself. They were brought up hearing how religion was the answer to everything. Pray and thou shall receive, right? Nope. Well damn, right off the bat millions of people feel like religion has cheated them because they prayed for a super-model GF and got a fat-whore who eats Cheetos all day.

Our existence is more simple than we are willing to admit. The scientific community doesn't believe in fairy-tales. The religious community runs around like a bunch of fucking kids singing "I LOVE YOU, U LOVE ME..." They end up fighting because of their differences and both lose everything, missing the fact that we all simply love the act of living, nothing more.

(lol sorry, just saw Avatar and that's got me thinking about some deeeeeep shit...)

[morreo]

i believe he existed

i do not believe he came back to life after he died tho

[spire]

Moral of the Story: KEEP YO EMOTIONS IN CHECK SUCKAZ.

[deejne]

Moral of the Story: KEEP YO EMOTIONS IN CHECK SUCKAZ.

This isn't about emotions. Not where where you got that from lol

[capone]

We're the flea to the dog, and the world is the dog. That's what we're here for, to destroy the world...

[420p]

historical fact: jesus did exist

he is the most quoted prophet in the quaran

he has a whole half of the bible based on him

keep it moving ya groupie

win

[capone]

http://rlv.zcache.com/jesus_mows_my_lawn_tshirt-p235965229035121147cec9_400.jpg

[Foq]

all you groupies failed to post itt about jesus not even being born on december 25th

u guys are slacking

[Treal P]

Hmmm, what about this... do you think the devil exists or existed?

[spire]

This isn't about emotions. Not where where you got that from lol

I'm on some different shit I guess >;]

Yeah, someone has to ask the question of whether or not Jesus even existed, but I just think some people are missing the point.

Exposing whether or not Jesus existed won't do much, will it? We already know that God's word has been used to manipulate society for centuries, so why even go through the trouble? Keep your eye on the road and focus on yourself. Learn from Jesus's word, don't close him out.

Trying to disprove Jesus's existence turns you into the kind of religious-fanatics that you loathe so much to begin with. You're a 'truth-fanatic'. Let loose and let your mind wonder a little...

[dna]

my logic is that humans should be smarter than to just dream up these images with the intent of saying "hah! since you can't prove it DOESN'T exist, it does!" - you realize that is entirely backwards as far as sensibility goes? maybe it isn't right to define sensibility in this way, maybe that's just my opinion

it's not "completely up in the air" at all to me, if someone calls me up right now exclaiming that they just saw two unicorns fucking in their front yard and they don't have some sort of convincing evidence then i am going to hang up the phone and disregard that shit as if it never even happened

i completely agree that jesus christ who preformed miracles didn't exist, but he as an ordinary person who people knew about did.

[capone]

i completely agree that jesus christ who preformed miracles didn't exist, but he as an ordinary person who people knew about did.

So you worship a normal person?

[dna]

i never said i was catholic, did i?

[LOLLERCAUST]

http://i45.tinypic.com/qqctj4.jpg



http://i46.tinypic.com/1j442c.jpg

[Syg]

two things:
1) whether jesus existed or not is a moot point, due to the fact his existence doesn't help to support or not support the christian beliefs. what really matters is the core values that "jesus" taught, basically, everyone deserves a fair shot at happiness in life as everyone else, we should never be jealous of each other, we should also HELP EACH OTHER, and basically make this place as wonderful and peaceful as we can for every human being. also, i'm 100% atheist, so don't go "he's biased" on me. one of my closest friends is a methodist pastor.

and 2)
http://www.tshirthell.com/shirts/products/a127/a127_bm.gif

[deejne]

two things:
1) whether jesus existed or not is a moot point, due to the fact his existence doesn't help to support or not support the christian beliefs. what really matters is the core values that "jesus" taught, basically, everyone deserves a fair shot at happiness in life as everyone else, we should never be jealous of each other, we should also HELP EACH OTHER, and basically make this place as wonderful and peaceful as we can for every human being. also, i'm 100% atheist, so don't go "he's biased" on me. one of my closest friends is a methodist pastor.


As I stated before, the "values and lessons" described in the religious writings are great, there is nothing wrong with that. The problem, however, is that people take them literally as if they actually did happen in history. I just think it's important for people to know.

It does completely support Christian beliefs, they believe that Jesus literally died and came back to life 3 days after that. Delusional.

Religion is not necessary for people to have good moral values. I am not religious and either are you. I am sure we both have pretty similar moral compasses...

Also, if you are an atheist, who believes that God does not exist indefinitely, then these are not moot points to you. If you believe that the question of God or Jesus existing is a "moot point" and irrelevant, then you are agnostic.

[emo porn]

religion = brainwashing

[craig]

ollolol @ pics or it didn't happen

[Treal P]

yo religion

i'm about that philosophical spiritual treal life living

ps she know I get high

[PiffMonger]

rofl jesus was a real person you faggot. now about his mythical journey some asshole made up on shrooms that is up for debate.
treal

[suave]

CATHOLICS STAND UP

[1337ninjer]

CATHOLICS STAND UP

can't right now i'm genuflecting

[internots]

Whether Jesus lived or not, without Christmas there would be about half as many retail store and even fewer jobs

[deejne]

Whether Jesus lived or not, without Christmas there would be about half as many retail store and even fewer jobs

Good, less consumer whores.

[internots]

Good, less consumer whores.

and that's where you go wrong. money is good. without it, the peoples gay republic of san francisco wouldnt be so comfortable for you

[deejne]

and that's where you go wrong. money is good. without it, the peoples gay republic of san francisco wouldnt be so comfortable for you


If you think that just because of Christmas there are more retail stores, you are obviously a moron and know nothing about economics.

You sound like an ignorant fuckhole.

Also, San Francisco, I'm sure, puts whatever lame fucking suburb you live in to shame. And FYI, New York, LA, and Chicago have many more gays than SF. SOunds like you're a homophobe... which usually turns out to mean your a fuckin fag.

But hey, way to take the thread way off topic. Fuckin dumbass.

[internots]

If you think that just because of Christmas there are more retail stores, you are obviously a moron and know nothing about economics.

You sound like an ignorant fuckhole.

Also, San Francisco, I'm sure, puts whatever lame fucking suburb you live in to shame. And FYI, New York, LA, and Chicago have many more gays than SF. SOunds like you're a homophobe... which usually turns out to mean your a fuckin fag.

But hey, way to take the thread way off topic. Fuckin dumbass.

Here I go:

Its called "Black Friday" because that's when MOST retail stores go from red to black for the year (also known as turning a profit). A significant portion of the year's revenue comes during the CHRISTMAS season. Without it, stores realize less profit, hire fewer people, and on and on.

So without the Christmas season, NOBODY would probably be as comfortable as they are.

Also, I live in LA, I went college at UCSC (just graduated in econ btw), and I've spent enough time in SF to know that while there might not be MORE gays in the bay, the proportion of them is higher. Its no big deal, I was actually making a 30 Rock reference, but the truth is, I could tell that you'd jump to conclusions like that and automatically assume you knew what was what. Its the same thing that made you think "yo, im going to make a thread saying jesus was a noob christmas" was what anyone wanted to read.

[deejne]

Here I go:

Its called "Black Friday" because that's when MOST retail stores go from red to black for the year (also known as turning a profit). A significant portion of the year's revenue comes during the CHRISTMAS season. Without it, stores realize less profit, hire fewer people, and on and on.

So without the Christmas season, NOBODY would probably be as comfortable as they are.

Also, I live in LA, I went college at UCSC (just graduated in econ btw), and I've spent enough time in SF to know that while there might not be MORE gays in the bay, the proportion of them is higher. Its no big deal, I was actually making a 30 Rock reference, but the truth is, I could tell that you'd jump to conclusions like that and automatically assume you knew what was what. Its the same thing that made you think "yo, im going to make a thread saying jesus was a noob christmas" was what anyone wanted to read.

What I am saying is if Christmas did not exist, the economy would not collapse and everything (earnings, etc) would be proportional to how they are now with Christmas.

IF Christmas didn't exist, it's not like everyone would go around saying "Oh man, I wish there was some holiday called Christmas to drive profits up."

[deejne]

Here I go:

Its called "Black Friday" because that's when MOST retail stores go from red to black for the year (also known as turning a profit). A significant portion of the year's revenue comes during the CHRISTMAS season. Without it, stores realize less profit, hire fewer people, and on and on.

So without the Christmas season, NOBODY would probably be as comfortable as they are.

Also, I live in LA, I went college at UCSC (just graduated in econ btw), and I've spent enough time in SF to know that while there might not be MORE gays in the bay, the proportion of them is higher. Its no big deal, I was actually making a 30 Rock reference, but the truth is, I could tell that you'd jump to conclusions like that and automatically assume you knew what was what. Its the same thing that made you think "yo, im going to make a thread saying jesus was a noob christmas" was what anyone wanted to read.

Also I know the per capita there are more gays. However, that doesn't negate the fact the LA, NY and Chicago have more.

And just because you live in LA, does not mean you don't live in a suburb, and no there's nothing wrong with that, I am just being a dick.

[dynastoned]

uh not trying to get involved in a religious cockfest here but that is a crazy statement
It is it true. Jesus is real. If you look it the Bible, Jesus is the King of Kings, Lord of Lords and He died to save people from their sins.

[tnbryan]

well at first i didnt want to respond to this thread...but why try so hard to bash people that believe in religion or jesus or god or whatever? that is their personal choice just as yours is to not believe in it. i never understood that. why is when people have hope or belief in something there is always someone to antagonize or persecute them why cant you just let them be? the world would go a whole lot smoother

[ryph]

dj you should have just responded with one quote, the one you left on your fb page:


"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."- Stephen F Roberts

from now on, both on dg/anywhere else online/irl this is what i will respond with to any religious 'argument' that comes up.

[ryph]

Its the same thing that made you think "yo, im going to make a thread saying jesus was a noob christmas" was what anyone wanted to read.

in his defense, odds are this was the complete opposite intent and he knew full well no1 really wanted to read this. its no secret even in 2009.9 and on DG most believe in some sort of higher power*. basically trolling and he got 3pages out of it.

* polls have been made over and over showing this over the years

[deejne]

dj you should have just responded with one quote, the one you left on your fb page:



from now on, both on dg/anywhere else online/irl this is what i will respond with to any religious 'argument' that comes up.

Indeed... yeah I'm not sure why people think I am "Bashing" religion... this is about the history of Jesus, and whether he was a real person or not, specifically.

[deejne]

well at first i didnt want to respond to this thread...but why try so hard to bash people that believe in religion or jesus or god or whatever? that is their personal choice just as yours is to not believe in it. i never understood that. why is when people have hope or belief in something there is always someone to antagonize or persecute them why cant you just let them be? the world would go a whole lot smoother

This is the third time I will say this, I am NOT "bashing" religion. I am talking specifically about historical evidence of Jesus as a real person or not.